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We're a guild doing UBRS at the moment, growing in size to soon be ready to take on ZG. At least some of it. Up until now we're N/G rolling and it works fine, since you're in a guild of people you know and trust. But for ZG there will be more epics and it might be time to switch to some sort of DKP system.
Here is a list of questions, I hope you'll help me answer. What's important is that you place yourself in our situation.
Guild:
- A guild of 90 lvl 30-60 players, with around 25 unique lvl 60 chars and more climbing to it.
- We will raid ZG max two times a week, maybe just one. So it won't be a farm try at the beginning. Just 3-4 hours of fun in there, downing what we can...
- We're in it for the fun first and foremost, not for the drops. That's a bonus to success. That means people will go druid feral, shadow priest, dps paladin etc. Unless we badly need healers at boss fights, then I'll ask them kindly to help with heals.
DKP or N/G:
A DKP system will take more managing. I like the idea, but rolling works fine at the moment. What do you suggest for a guild of our nature?
What system:
Is there a simply DKP system out there that only takes into consideration the epic drops? I've looked at Google, but can only fine a few people's suggestion about points for items. Is there a site that covers both time spent, attendance, bosses downed and all items (Or all epics, at least)?
How many for one boss:
We're in UBRS blues and some AV epics, for instance, but overall we don't have ZG, MC etc gear. So how many people do you think we should be, to attempt at least one boss? And what number of classes is a minimum, like can 1 tank do? And 2 healers?
We're well disciplined and not PUGish, which should make a difference too.
Good guide:
Is there a good progression- or simply just a boss guide to ZG somewhere? Found a couple for UBRS, which helped us tell a little about the bosses with "surprise" events. That helps us and I was wondering if there are any proper for ZG too, and some that are updated to the new changes?
Thanks in advance, hope people will be able to respect our guild philosophy and not spend their time degrading our style or goal. All I ask for is as many of you commenting on each point.
That I'll be grateful for :)
It contains a lot of information, and tactics for the bosses
A DKP system will take more managing. I like the idea, but rolling works fine at the moment. What do you suggest for a guild of our nature?
Wel most guilds skip dkp and just roll. Our guild has the added rule that epic drops (inc mounts) are distributed by reputation tiers (so first the exalted people roll. if they pass the revered roll etc .....) witch is sort of a dkp in itself. However we do zg "on the side" with a lot of alts and different ppl, so dkp aint possible for us. if u only wanna do a simple dkp plan for 20 ppl it aint that much work.
However be sure to work out on forehand
-How u divide the coins
-What classes can roll on what loot (ZG has a lot of very nice gear with no class restrictions. this can lead to friction from hunters rolling on a sword that rogue's claim is a rogue sword etc..... not to mention dps warriors shadow priests and feral druids :) )
If u dont i can garantee some trouble no matter how tight your guild is.
How many for one boss:
Well its a 20 mans instance, and in bleus its a HARD 20 mans instance so theres no reason to take less.
(bliz wanted to place something between urbs and mc qau toughness. they ****ed up and some bosses are actually quite harder then the ones in mc)
we take a minimun of 2 tanks (pref 3) and 7 to 9 healers(depends of divide between druids priests and paladins)
less and we dont even try.
However thats with a few t1 and t2 healers. your milage may vary !
some pointers
-Designate 1 Raidleader. or you wil quickly bog down to "what now" remember 1 mediocre plan is a 1000 times better then 20 different Brillant plans :)
-u might wanna look at a nice raid signup system to make things easier to
plan
-be prepared for a lot of whipes ;)
-go nuts with melee hunters and dps paladins. but dont understimate ZG, its a LOT harder then URBS
-ZG is on a 3 day reset timer. plan around that if u need to do a 2day run to get to a boss
-Have some fun in aq20 to. the first boss is quite easy and the new class call books are really nice. and even better stack with your gear :) (but hide from the secons boss. he mean ! )
- Teamspeak really helps in coordinating everything. Ask/order/beg your guildies to install it.
- Have fun. ZG is a great instance :)
We just started running ZG a couple of weeks ago. To answer your DKP question, we don't use one at the moment. It's strictly greed roll on all coins, bijous and greens. (unless you absolutely need the drop and can equip on the spot) We master loot on bosses which prevents "mistakes" and allows time to sort out who is going to roll on what. A bunch of stuff that drops requires certain levels of rep, so those that have the required level get first roll. If no one has the rep, we /random 100.
My guild and our allied chums The Pretend Heroes (<3) have more or less got ZG on farm status and we've been making some excellent progress in MC lately (we've also downed Ossirian I believe).
I've only been on two runs as of yet, but here is what I've gathered:
- Class setup: If you want to attempt the tiger boss (and I'm certain you will be wanting to) you will need 3 tanks (read the WoW wiki guide for more info), even if you're not going to be, thats a pretty good number to go by. As far as healers go, 6 is a nice solid number to have- we, just like you don't force anyone to spec differently from what they want to, and we find that it's no problem, as long as they agree to heal if we're short that night. The rest of the classes is basically a smattering of whoever wants to come. It's always a nice idea to have some mages (for the panther boss and cc), and warlocks for the utility, however these remaining 12 spots aren't really a big deal- the last time I went we had something like 5 hunters in the raid and it basically went off without a hitch, in fact, it was one of the fastest clearings of the 5 priests we've ever done. To sum up, class composition isn't a big deal- just make sure you have AT LEAST two tanks and a sufficient number of healers (5 is alright, but try and go for 6).
Loot: We have a really great system for 20-mans (our 40 man system is a bit different). Bijous and coins are greeded upon, in the odd event someone needs it they can ask the winner if they're feeling kind enough to give it up. As far as other loot goes here's the deal:
-Everyone can win one quest item (so one epic paragon of power), and one ordinary loot item. These are rolled upon.
It's that simple, this has never caused any trouble in the past, and it sounds like you have a pretty sensible guild- I don't think there'll be problems. BTW, we use Group Loot for trash, and switch to Master Looter for boss mobs.
Strategy: Search around the web, the WoW wiki is a good place to start, PM me with any tactics questions and I'll see if I can help out.
With the gear you guys have, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to down Venoxis quite easily, in fact, I think you guys could do all 5 priests with that gear. Get to know the tactics, and all of the bosses will be pie .
We don't use DKP in ZG and AQ20, only the 40man raids.
Coins and Bijous are just random rolled.
The enchant voodoo dolls and idol are rolled for ( /roll )
As we don't prioritise loot, if you can use it, you can roll.
We have a limit of one epic per night - that includes the Paragons of Power, but might as well be one of the other epics that drops.
In general, you should be fine with 2 tanks, Tiger boss will want you see a third one there. I like the 3druid,priest and paladin/shaman setup, but it's not all that required and you can well miss one. Do bring a few mages as you'll want some crowd control and AoE on (your way to) a few bosses.
Basically this is a training ground for the "big stuff". I'd treat it like the big stuff. This means:
DKP - Use it. Just to get people familiar with it. Also it's nice to know that you can get your goods if you put in your time. EQDKP is a system most guilds use.
Raid Sign up - Since you have so many this will let people know who is and isn't going. Also you can set-up a guarantee for those that don't make it in 1st round.
Raid Schedule - Do ZG twice a week. It gives you good practice and you can gear people progressively.
Vent/TS - This helps immensely(sp?). Given the number of senses we have one more means of communication doesn't hurt. (I know some raid leaders wish there was a tactile function, so they could shock/poke/or pinch some in the raid.)
Potions/Reagents/Etc. - Make sure people are bringing all that they need for the raid, and that they are fully repaired. People need their A game, since they haven't done this before.
for loot there is a site that has WoW loot listed with recommendations for class...use Google, try looking for WoW loot. Can't link/post it cause they have gold selling ads.
ZG Specifics:
1. Coins and Bijous. Some guilds keep them, some free roll. I suggest the Class Master looter. You set ML to the person that has the mod. They loot is and send it to be random. No rolling, it does it all. Great and efficient for BOE.
2. Hoodoo Piles. They MC the looter, kill them or sheep them...up to you.
3. Rep Gear. Some say you have to have the rep to get the gear. If you are just starting, no one has the rep...so use dkp.
4. Boss Fights. Make sure you have the strategies before you go. wowwiki.com has good info.
5. Trash mobs. these guys can wipe your raid. (look up berserker) Make sure you have an "assistant" to mark the targets and call out "oh,crap" moments. Crowd Control becomes very important. Make sure your guys are on it.
6. I get flak on this, but do Snake Boss first. Easy fight, and good for getting the "warm fuzzy feeling" of downing a boss.
7. Get an assistant. Let them mark the targets, call out times, and do general warnings.
8. Teams I suggest the following:
-Overall
At the least one of each class.
-General
5 Healers: Heal Spec, not "able to heal"
3 Tanks: one main, the other 2 to learn/help with CC
8 DPS: Sometimes if you kill it faster, you won't have to worry about the third round!
-Specific Classes - at the LEAST
3 Mages: Yes Mages - Sheepage for CC and AoE for...you'll see
2 Druids: They make with the sleepy for the beasties...CC
2 Warriors: They have the Aggro management tools. One has to be the MT.
2 Priests: The raid buffs and healing abilities are great.
-The Rest
Fill out with DPS.
(#8 I have to reiterate this is for ZG. People that play other classes might get miffed that I did not include them as a must have...well Nertz to you! I said at least of of each class. The above will let your "mixed" builds/class play what they want.)
Here is what you will have issues with:
1. Crowd control. Sometimes the concept of all on Diamond, sheep moon and skull are foreign concepts.
2. Stand here, or there. The boss fights are a million times easier when everyone is in position! Some people think it does not matter. But when the bat boss silences all your casters, healers included...you'll see position is important.
3. Ninja Afk, these guys are dangerous...Pats and such are more lethal, see above.
4. People showing up! That is why signups are nice.
Overall: Have fun! I wish my Guild would do more ZG. I love the place. It was my first "big instance" and I love going back.
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